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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Also of note is that as of this close, the article has two references in it as inline citations. (Non-administrator closure) NorthAmerica1000 03:00, 16 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

King's Highway (ancient)

[edit]
King's Highway (ancient) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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A thorough search yielded not a single source supporting the claims made in the article. Text is basically unchanged since the article was created in 2005. It was tagged unsourced in 2007. If anyone does manage to unearth a RS, that would be very nice. Good luck. Kleuske (talk) 13:50, 7 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note. There are many modern Kings' Highways, there's a "Darb al Malik", a ""Darb al Sultan"[1], there's one from Amman to Aqaba[2], but nothing ancient. Kleuske (talk) 13:59, 7 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Middle East-related deletion discussions. Rcsprinter123 (cackle) @ 16:37, 7 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Transportation-related deletion discussions. Rcsprinter123 (converse) @ 16:37, 7 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:33, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - A Google search finds many authoritative sources. For example: Lee, Jessica (18 Sep 2012). "Travelling the slow route to Petra". Road Trips. BBC. Retrieved 7 Aug 2014.; Gimlette, John (28 Mar 2012). "Jordan: the King's Highway to adventure and amazement". Travel. The Telegraph. Kent, UK: Telegraph Media Group Limited. Retrieved 7 Aug 2014.; "Touristic Sites". Kingdom of Jordan. Retrieved 7 Aug 2014..--Rpclod (talk) 01:49, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • The BBC-version o the "Kings Highway" is mentioned above as running from Amman to Aqaba, not from Egypt to the Euphrates as the article does. The rest are tourist oriented pieces and do not count as "authorative" in my book, especially when it is about "ancient traderoutes". Kleuske (talk) 09:11, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Userfy Still unsourced. Sources that exist haven't been added. If there's consensus for deletion, I'd like the closing admin to add this to my collection of articles to rehab. Chris Troutman (talk) 02:28, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Userify -- Apart from the Biblical quotation, this is unsourced. I strongly suspect that the interpretation of the quotation will be a matter of dispute. This is a subject that needs much more than traveller's tales and guidebooks; these hardly count as WP:RS. Which king is referred to in the title? The king of Edom or some greater king? The simple reading is that the Israelites wanted to pass through Edom along the main road, but the king of Edom would not let them. That implies nothing except that there was a main road across Edom. Where it stated and ended, and how much further it went is essentially a matter of speculation i.e. WP:OR. It may be that there are scholarly discussions of the question, in which case they should be cited. Peterkingiron (talk) 13:13, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Seems notable. Needs references. I've posted a comment on WikiProject Judaism. CesareAngelotti (talk) 14:30, 13 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete I see no evidence it ever existed as one route. It looks like the other articles on other Wikipedias are copies of this one except [5] which is about a different road. CesareAngelotti - why do you think there was ever such a highway? Do you understand what we mean by WP:NOTABLE? It needs to have reliable third party sources discussing it so I think you haven't read our criteria for notability. Perhaps you will reconsider your !vote or justify it please by showing these sources. This isn't actually a vote, the closing Administrator will look at the policy and guideline based arguments and make a decision based on them, not a count of !votes. Dougweller (talk) 14:45, 13 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
As you might realise, ancient routes abounded, and given their nature, adequate references are hard to come by unless you're an anthropologist or an expert on the subject matter. At a quick glance, I find hundreds of references to a highway named as such, but in order to attest to which particular path the sources refer to I'd have to spend hours reading those sources. That's why I support asking an expert. It may turn out to be of no relevance, or may be based on inaccurate information. We must err on the side of caution and take our time in determining the facts. There was such a highway (by name and region), there's no evidence to say there wasn't: what needs to be determined is the accuracy of the information relayed in the article. As for your administrative concerns, don't worry: I have spent years editing on Wikipedia. Regards, CesareAngelotti (talk) 14:57, 13 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
At a quick glance you find hundreds of sources? Care to share a couple of them? After all, you are not the only wikipedian who can read. We might share the burden. Kleuske (talk) 16:45, 13 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Good to know I'm not the only one! A simple Scholar search returned thousands of articles. I don't have access to academic databases at the moment, so if you do you might add a great deal to the discussion. The articles' descriptions shed light to the fact that there indeed was such a road, althouth as I said I can't access the articles themselves. Thanks, CesareAngelotti (talk) 16:28, 14 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Ah yes... I've been over those and ended up with the above. There's more than one road called "Kings Highway", in the UK, the US, Australia and in Jordan. The first you can discard and the sources on the others don't match and none seem to support the article. Kleuske (talk) 18:54, 14 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some Comments:
    1. Bear in mind that the amount of literature devoted to the Bible—secular as well as religious—is immense, and anything mentioned in the Bible is probably notable unless it is an obvious subtopic of something else.
    2. "King's Highway" is indeed too vague a search term. I suggest searching "King's Highway" "Via Maris" or "דרך המלך" "דרך הים"‎ in Hebrew; sources that discuss one Levantine trade route will likely discuss its better-known fellow.
    3. Here are the first few of the relevant-looking sources I've found by searching Google Scholar in Hebrew: [6] [7] [8]. I do not have access to any of these journals and I can only see the fragment Google shows when searching, but those excerpts seem to indicate the "King's Highway"'s significance. Note that one of these sources indicates that research on the ancient trade routes mentioned in the Bible, including this one, is based largely on the work of Nelson Glueck.
    4. It is not surprising that the exact path of an ancient highway is debated and this does not make it less notable. For a source mentioning one of the disputed parts of the route, see [9]. הסרפד (call me Hasirpad) 20:40, 14 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - Looks like there are scholarly sources out there, whether it's real or not, it appears to be notable. That said, it needs some of the cites mentioned here actually put in the article.... XeroxKleenex (talk) 21:49, 14 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Jstor search "King's way" egypt:
    • " The term 'the king's way', which occurs in Assyrian as harr an sarri, is of a different kind" : [10]
    • "...advanced southward in Trans-Jordan along the 'King's Way'; they passed the region of Bashan (Ashteroth-Karnaim),G ilead (Ham), Moab12 (Shaveh-Kiriathaim), and Mount Seir and reached El-Paran, i.e. El (ath) on the edge of the wilderness of Paran.
    • B. THE 'KING'S WAY' IN THE TABULA PEUTINGERIANA" [11]
    • "In this case the lower field of the palette records Narmer's domination of the two main highways between Egypt, Syria and Mesopotamia: the 'sea road and the 'king's way'. The former cuts its way through the most fortified part of Palestine,85 the latter through the less inhabited and much less fortified plateau of Trans-Jordan.[12]
    • "..the increasing Hasmonean threat to take over compeletely the 'King's Way,' led Yannai, after a short time, to a direct military confrontation with Petra's rulers." [13]
    • ". Prior to the 16th century, the pilgrims appear to have used a number of routes, most of which ran further west, following the ancient King’s Highway or Via Nova Traiana." [14]...
    • " Outline map of the North and Central Negev, showing prominent geographical features referred to in this article. The dotted lines follow the courses of dry stream beds or wadis, while the double dotted lines indicate-the courses of the King's Highway and the Darb es-Sultani. The course of the latter from the Wadi Aravah east is only the most probable of several possible routes. " [15]
    • book (not purely academic but Uof Michigan press. trespassers william (talk) 23:52, 14 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • Comment: All excellent sources, except possibly the first (read ḫarran šarri), which refers to Mesopotamian highway that passed through the Balikh and Khabur valleys [16] though one source says that ḫarran šarri is the King's Highway of the Bible [17] (unless, somehow, this is not a contradiction?). הסרפד (call me Hasirpad) 00:43, 15 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
          • Comment If it's the Via Traiana Nova than we have two articles on it. Britannica suggests it is.[18] - we'd need to merge the two articles, not simply keep both. But other sources say the Via Traiana Nova was build by the Romans.[19] Dougweller (talk) 05:44, 15 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
            • You don't appreciate the amount and complexity of extant knowledge in the field. From I quickly gathered, researches identify a road that has been used in prehistory and protohistory, and written about by early civilizations. Then came the Romans and paved a good part of it, incorporating it ito their official Roman roads system with milestones and the like. This is essentialy a separate thing. Their road was kept in use long after they were gone, but incorporated into newer road systems. Maybe this even deserve a third article.
            • It is enraging to see a good, encompassing, wikilinked article, contributed in whole by a serious user, who gave up due to deletions, several years ago, almost razed because it doesn't have a couple of footnotes. Way to go with the sermons. trespassers william (talk) 14:27, 15 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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